In response to popular demand, the following is a post we published on September 2, 2012, about the banning of Robin Sullivan from Absolute Write.
**************************************************************************************
We’ve had several requests for a post on this subject, but we were waiting for a good example to show everyone. “An example of what?” you ask. An example of why it is a good idea to steer clear of Absolute Write, or at least of its water cooler.
Now, if there is any environment more toxic than GR, it’s the Absolute Write Water Cooler. It’s a snake pit. And not just any snake pit. We’re talking Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark kind of snake pit. Why is it so bad? Its not just because of its members. Its moderators play a big part in it, too. Keep reading and we’ll show you what we mean.
Now before we continue, we want to show you some Alexa reviews we found here. All of the five star reviews are legacy reviews, because once upon a time, when AW was fresh and new, it was a good place to be, but slowly over time, it became corrupt. Many of our readers tell us that it has to do with a certain person who took over as moderator/owner, but before we get to that, here are the most recent reviews we found:
Gosh, does this sound familiar? Does it surprise anyone, then, that there is a HUGE overlap between AW and GR? Not at all.
Now, to show you what we mean about this site (and what these reviews are talking about,) we’ve decided to cover the banning of Robin Sullivan for this post, which is appropriately titled, I’ve Been Banned!
Those who know Robin tell us she is a terrific lady. She and her husband have been very successful: he as an author and she as an independent publisher. Robin is very savvy and knowledgeable when it comes to the the publishing industry. If you are just starting out as either a writer or a publisher, we recommend consulting her. She is very nice to newcomers. Her blog is here.
So what happened to her? Well, we’ll let her tell you from her post:
I was in a conversation at Absolute Water Cooler entitled: Can I try and traditionally publish after making a kindle/e-pubbing?
The general opinion of many posting there was that you’ve shot yourself in the foot by self-publishing first as the first publication cherry had been popped and therefore the book is now “dead” as far as getting agent representation or finding another publisher.
My position was that you still can publish that work. And people are not as concerned as they once were about the first publication rights. The points I raised included:
- As my role in acquisitions, I actually seek out self-published authors to sign with Ridan
- Michael resold his works that were self published (and for six-figures to boot)
- Several self-published authors from the Kindle Boards were recruited by the Trident Group for representation.
- Noah Lukeman, a major NY publisher recruited self-publishing authors D.B. Henson and J.R. Jagger.
- An October 2011 article in Forbes entitled: Literary Agents Open the Door to Self-Published Writers supported my assertion
- I also posted 4 recent deals on Publisher’s Marketplace for recently signed self-published works.There are actually three different posts on AW at this time on this exact subject so some of those points may have been made in other similar posts – I’ve not bothered to look back.
In any case any post by myself or Kevin McLaughlin (who had similar opinions) were dismissed indicating that there are many others on the site with years of “real” publishing experience and if they say the works are dead….they are dead. They stated over and over that this was “common knowledge” and neither produced nor were required to produce any facts or supporting documentation backing these claims.
If you read the thread, you’ll see that Robin backs up her assertions with real facts, real numbers, and real documentation (i.e. links.) The others don’t. They just tell them that they’re wrong because they said so. Once she and Kevin started noticing a double standard in the discussion, what happened? MacAllister Stone, the moderator we mentioned above, banned her with this message (Robin had the presence of mind at the time to screengrab it):
In case you couldn’t read the message, here’s a close up:
The moderator – I’ll say that again – the MODERATOR, MacAllister Stone, said:
“Just get the hell off my site. You’re relentlessly snotty, rude, and you’re a fucking bald-faced liar. I’m done with you.”
So, you see why we’re telling everyone to steer clear of this place?
Need more proof? I know many of you don’t but we’ll give you some more, just for kicks. In this thread, an AW member theaveng, told James MacDonald that he made a dumb comment. Who is James MacDonald? This guy:
Now, be aware that ol’ Jimmy Boy here is tight with Mac and the other moderators. So, when theaveng told him he made a dumb comment, how did the moderators respond? With this:
Hmm… *scratches chin* So, she says:
“James D. MacDonald is a respected writer, editor, and writing teacher is part of the publishing community. He’s also part of this community, and you will respect him and the other members of this community, or you won’t be posting here.”
Hey, Peter! Can we get a translation of that?
Peter: Sure! Here ya go!
“James MacDonald is a puffed-up, self-important peacock who thinks he’s God’s gift to the literary world. You will kiss his ass or else I will ban you and call you a fucking bald-faced liar. We decide who gets respect around here and who doesn’t. That would mean James does and you do not. So bend to our will or get the hell off our site, because difference of opinions is NOT welcome in this community. Read the sign: disagreeing = disrespecting, especially when you make a valid point!”
Thanks, Peter!
So… is he really a puffed-up, self-important peacock who thinks he’s God’s gift to the literary world? You be the judge:
Learn writing with Uncle Jim? Uncle Jim? Oh. My. God! Jim MacDonald has told all the “newbies” he wants them to call him Uncle Jim. This isn’t just a little bit creepy. *shivers*
Advice to newbies, in particular, young newbies of the female persuasion: STAY AWAY from “Uncle Jim”:
This has got to be worse than “Aunty Kat.” Listen, we’ve said this before, but we’ll say it again. Be wary of people who talk like this. Be wary of people who want you to call them Uncle or Aunty or who refer to themselves in the third person. This is a sign of impending megalomania and it can’t be good.
So, Uncle Jimmy Boy, can you say megalomania? Say it! Go ahead. You can do it! You can say it!
M-E-G-A-L-O-M-A-N-I-A.
Good boy! We knew you could do it.
And just in case you don’t know what that means, we’ve looked it up in the dictionary for you:
Megalomania: i) obsession with the exercise of power, esp. in the domination of others, ii) delusion about one’s own power or importance (typically as a symptom of manic or paranoid disorder.)
There. Now you understand. 😀 Good! Moving on…
So… what does he think of us?
You all got that? We’re bad. We’re bad. We know it. We know it. *dances*
Hey, ya’all! *waves* Come on over to the bad side and join us! It’s a party! Woohoo!
He also says that what we do isn’t good for publishing (i.e. legacy publishing.)
Is that right, Jimbo? You want to know what else isn’t good for legacy publishing? We’ll give you a hint. Starts with an A. Ends with an n. Can you guess? And if publishing doesn’t learn how to adapt, it will die. We’ve learned this from a wise American attorney named Clarence Darrow:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change.”
So, to wrap up, here are a few pearls from Jim MacDonald about authors and reviews of their books.
He also says:
After reading those, my coffee almost came out of my nose when I read this:
But… but… I thought you said authors shouldn’t read reviews because they’re not for them and that saying a negative review is an attack on an author is insane?
Suggestion: you may want to pull your head out of your ass, there, Jimbo. Might help you see things a little more clearly.
And this next screenshot is totally irrelevant to the subject of this post, but we thought we’d add it in because she’s an AW member. Also we just wanted to give everyone a good laugh:
A fucking good writer? *snort* In what universe?
I just spit tea all over my keyboard from laughing so hard. Your post on “Uncle Jimbo” and Somerloon’s screencap about being a “fucking good writer” made my day. ROFL! Great post, STGRB. Keep up the good work.
I lol’d.
And so true. So very, very true about Uncle Jimbob. *snicker*
ALSO, did you know those from AW posted regularly on a Beware thread about book covers from a *certain* publisher, basically just to make fun of them? It was because the photo stock used to these covers were all similar, due to the publisher being a scam. Regardless, the AWers wouldn’t bother even trying to keep the authors’ names out of the equation, so that they would not be ridiculed. Often the authors were ridiculed in addition to these covers. Seriously.
Sometimes certain AWers would also ridicule authors’ writing, plots, etc. (while making stupid grammar mistakes themselves, mind you).
One of these women who especially got on my nerves was Christine Norris. Ugh! She was as annoying as Uncle Jimbob asswipe.
LOL. Also I got banned from their site two years ago. I honestly have no idea why, unless it was because I didn’t conform to their cliques. 😀
Also, did you know that supposedly 75% of the members have best-selling books? *lulzy sarcasm*
I just noticed on Jimbob’s intro to his ‘Learn How to Write Perfectly Like Awesome Me’ thread, he wrote the word ‘that’ three times in only three sentences.
Hmm. Yeah he’s a pro!
Wow, I thought it was just me! I was banned from AW, too. I guess I should wear that as a badge of honor.
You are definitely not alone. Joe Konrath (although they banned him for only a week. Can’t have someone selling so much reporting on it! Oh noes. The horror.), Kevin O. McLaughlin, Melissa Douthit (okay, she did go there after Robin to report her successful experience in publishing, fully expecting to get banned. Which she did), Martyn V. Halm, and so many others who choose to remain anonymous. Mac is notorious for banning dissenting voices that doesn’t fit with her publishing-world-view.
That’s right. Joe did get banned. I forgot about that. And Melissa didn’t just expect to get banned, she did it on purpose. Because Robin was so upset that Mac banned her, Melissa went over to AW and ripped Mac a new one. She knew Mac would ban her. I laughed my ass off when I read it. She made some good points though and Mac couldn’t handle it. Melissa said her time on AW only lasted a matter of minutes before Mac was like, “Here, let me show you to the door.” LMAO! And as it turns out, Robin was right. The whole thing was based on an argument Robin and Kevin were advocating and that was that writers should self-publish before seeking a book contract with a publisher. Robin backed up her side with facts and numbers and she was right. Now self-publishing first before getting a book deal is the norm.
I was banned a few days after Robin Sullivan was banned, together with another self-publisher who goes under Coloradomom, who didn’t want to put up the content of her e-book for free.
I posted over 1700 posts, most of them helping newbies with information, and I was ousted because I didn’t want to supply free business advice to someone who claimed to be working for a publisher. I don’t do somebody else’s job for free.
I basically got the same rude dismissal from Mac. I know that my dismissal sent a shockwave through the membership who supported me – I received many emails asking if I wanted them to petition the ban, but I didn’t want other members to risk a ban for supporting me. Plus I was pretty much done with AW at that time. There are more supportive and constructive forums available to both fledgling and professional writers.
Yep, you should. You’re in good company.
Well, guess what. Victoria is now on Twitter accusing me of threatening to kill her. She tweeted that she complained to the police about it. Check with thewriteagenda.wordpress.com — they’re keeping record of this imbecility. We’re not affiliated.
Four years ago I wrote a posting suggesting that these people were insane and how and why. You can’t be mentally and emotionally healthy to lie as these people do in the first place. I’m going to doublecheck with the Amherst MA police this morning about this incredibly malicious “complaint.”
http://tommydark.blogspot.com/2011/09/absolute-shit-literary-scam.html
Another bully pile-on attack of a self-published author took place recently on AW. The thread in question has since been deleted (despite repeated claims by Mods that they don’t do such things) but the whole story including screen shots is covered in this blog:
http://absolutewrong.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-curious-incident-of-dog-in-manger.html#more
It’s discussed on the Kindle Boards here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=172987.0
I’ve been wary about Absolute Write since I joined it over a year ago. The advice was definitely helpful, and I’ve met so many good people through the site. In fact, half of my critique partners I met through the beta readers forums.
But I agree, something felt a little rotten there. I recall the first time I read some of Uncle Jim’s advice, I thought, “This guy likes to hear himself talk.” Sure, he’s not wrong all of the time, but some of it just seemed like self-important meanderings of a narcissist who had a captive audience. So I generally avoided his advice since it was so esoteric that it made me scratch my head.
When I decided to stop hanging around there was when I was trying to decide whether to self-publish or not. There’s a definite bias against it. The forums set aside for self-pubbing are rather small. I recall MacAllister’s post on how adamant he was that we do not call ourselves “indie authors,” and that he would not allows us to do so in his forums. For a long time, I went merrily along, thinking that he was giving industry advice, only to find out that the biggest names in self-pub use that term interchangeably with “self-pubbed author.”
From there, I started to see that they didn’t have much to offer the self-published: No real mod support (as in, helpful advice) for the self-publisher. While I didn’t personally feel that they were attacking self-publishers, they seem to want self-pubbers to go away, to die off, to sail away into the night. They wouldn’t exactly outright tell me, “No, don’t do it,” but more, “Well. You have to make a decision. You know, for your career. The right decision. No, no, we’re not going to tell you what the right decision is. There is plenty of advice. Just, make the right one. Because there’s no turning back. You are doomed forever if you choose ‘the wrong one.'”
I’m more than a little leery about the place. I know too many good people who’ve been banned for next-to-nothing (I saw the build up). The person who runs the place has a long reach, too. She’s active in other online enclaves.
I should point out that MacAllister is a she. She also told one writer I know (because she only knew her from fan fiction) that she couldn’t call herself a professional, even though that writer had been writing professionally for many years. I guess MacAllister knows all.
I will say the dumbest of the year comment was totally unnecessary. Making a point with facts would have probably been more helpful. I’m writing this in 2014, so maybe all the hurt feelings are healed.
It is a website that allows anyone to join. Some advice is going to be good, some not. I’ve read some critiques that I thought were total shit, and others that were really helpful. As for Uncle whatever, so don’t join his group. Of course he like to hear himself talk, anyone who writes a blog likes to hear themselves talk to some degree. Personally, I wouldn’t even click on Uncle anything. My fault if I do.
It’s very tempting to test the water to praise self-pub to the skies just to see how Absolute Writers Water Cooler.
I think any site that tries to underestimate self-publishing isn’t worth taking seriously.
I remember when he gave this one guy a time ago, just because he was giving one writer some writing advice. Now I’ve said I don’t like unsolicited writing advice, … but with that said what he did to squelch it made him look much worse than the one giving writing advice.
He said this one guy should have at least five books published before handing out writing advice. Woe there Jimbo, published in which way? In trade that would take someone ten years, if they’re lucky. If I find the thread I’ll link it. (Surprise, habit of deleting threads.)
I think that’s what made me not come back (deliberately) for months. Does he really think he’s that much of a better writer for writing five books? That’s an ego.
The first sentence should have the word react in it.