Our attention was pointed to something very interesting today. We usually don’t post on the Amazon fora. We haven’t in a while simply because we recommend that all our visitors and readers just stay out of the place, but , we couldn’t pass up. It is a perfect example of why we give this advice.
It first starts off with a discussion started by an author, Emma Paul:
You will notice that right off that they are suspicious her motives simply because she is an author. Right there, we see a prejudice against her because of who she is, as if she is evil – someone who should be mistrusted and despised. She had no hidden agenda or motive. Emma simply wanted to have a decent conversation with others. That was her only “motive” as she says in response to their comments:
And so goes the first page, with nothing major happening until the second page where two well-known trolls arrive (John Green and Mahala Burlingame), stirring up drama and accusing Emma of trolling (you will see how they immediately try to derail the topic of the conversation, provoke Emma into a fight, and then trash talk other people):
And from here, it just gets worse, the conversation deteriorating into what you normally see in the fora. Some examples (please note the accusations made against others by the trolls are precisely that – accusations, nothing more):
And this one just topped the whole convo off perfectly: the trolls swarm in, start a fight, and then expect an apology:
Un-freaking-believable! All Emma was trying to do was start a polite conversation, but the trolls (i.e. Mahala) wouldn’t have it. If you read the thread, you will notice how she pushes and provokes Emma into a fight despite Emma’s efforts to keep the conversation civil. It’s hilarious how Mahala insists that Emma is such a horrible person for doing and saying all these terrible things and being disingenuous, because we all know how innocent Mahala is, right? She’s so persecuted, isn’t she?
In the end, Emma felt so bad about how the conversation turned out, she went back and deleted the original post. Good thing we have everything recorded, just in case our readers want to see the entire convo.
Now, the question is, if you are an author, or really anyone for that matter, can you start a discussion in the fora that will remain constructive and civil and possibly provide useful information for everyone reading it without the convo degenerating in to insults, ad hominem attacks and other forms of verbal mud-slinging?
The answer is no. As long as the AFT (Amazon Fora Trolls) are free to roam and target people as they wish, there is no possibility of having a discussion like this wherever they are. The trolls are not content with having a polite conversation. They thrive on contention, conflict, and drama. They love to spew their hatred and destroy whoever they can, especially if it is an author. And this is precisely why we caution people and counsel them to stay out of the fora.
Our advice when encountering these bullies’ nonsense?
1) Don’t ever apologize to them. First, they don’t deserve it, and in fact, they are the ones who should be apologizing to others. Second, they won’t forgive you for whatever perceived wrong you’ve done them. Nothing makes these people happy.
2) Ignore them and their taunts. If you are in the Amazon fora and run afoul of them, just act like they aren’t there.
And finally:
3) Get away from them as quickly as you can. We recommend just steering clear of the Amazon fora altogether, but we know there are those of you out there who like to participate in some of the discussions and there are a few (and far between) convos that are troll free. The point is, trying to have a civil discussion with these people and get through to them is a complete waste of time. Save that time to do other, more productive things, like… well, like writing, or reading and sharing your thoughts on books with others who are mature enough to engage in friendly conversation. Much more satisfying and you’ll probably make a friend or two in the process.
And that’s it.
Take care out there in cyberspace.
Peace out.
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An addendum.
More attacks on Emma:
More name calling, this time between two other people:
So, yeah, don’t even bother trying to talk to these people. They don’t do polite conversation. It’s too boring for them.
And that’s the truth of it.
« Bully as “Author” #14, John Green, aka Grey Warden Charta Res Novae »
Excellent article. And not at all surprising. I abandoned the Top Reviewers Forum some time ago, and would not encourage anyone to attempt a discussion there, or to post there at all. Ever. If Amazon does end up removing these Discussion Threads (we are hearing that they might), I will be neither surprised nor sorry. But what a beautiful concept the Forum must have been in the beginning. What potential the different Discussion Groups had! Thanks again for all the work you do, STGRB. The book world is a better place for all thanks to you.
You guys know that now they’re gonna think I planned all this with you right? I should probably care. I feel both glad and sad that you all decided to post about this. Still, I appreciate you coming in to let people know how a simple attempt at conversation can get so derailed. I was gonna come on here and be pissed about this, that was my initial reaction, but then I thought, what the hell, the truth won’t matter to those people. I wanted to be the first to comment because I know they are waiting for me to do so.
Let them feed on this then. Thank you Athena for sticking up for me once again. Now let’s watch the mud slinging on that thread continue until someone decides they’re bored and move on to something better.
I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. Trolling may never stop, but it’s nice to have a heads up on what and who to avoid.
Ah, I see the Amazon trolls are still as vile as ever. They twist peoples words, lie, and attack. The lady who started the thread, Ms. Nomie, seemed to want a civilised conversation. It is obvious that she had history with one or two people on the thread, but Ms Nomie was straight, honest and polite. But wicked trolls like Mahala can never play nice. Mahala is not mature enough to leave the past behind, and move forward. Well, that’s her loss. Let her stay in the past. While Ms. Nomie moves onto a bright future, with new and old friends.
The Amazon/GR trolls will never, ever change. I bet Ms. Nomie is glad that she can walk away from the Amazon forums, with her head held high. Leaving the bitter trolls behind to fight among themselves…
Thanks Alice, I’m not at all proud that I let loose on there. I wanted to be civil, but I just can’t stand the lies and stupid accusations. Sometimes we need to let emotions go, consequences be damned. Thank you STGRB once again.
Emma, I think the thread makes clear what many of us have been saying for some time. The Amazon bullies are about censorship, the suppression of criticism, and the suppression of dialogue and debate. They seek to dominate and control discussions in the Top Reviewers Forum, and show immediate and threatening hostility to any one who seeks to talk thoughtfully about book reviewing. — The public, I believe, is slowly coming to understand how this works, how these people target and abuse any who challenge them and how opposed to freedom of speech and freedom of expression these people are. Many reviewers have gone into the Forum to try to engage with them. I did. It simply doesn’t work. They seek at once to silence anyone inviting them to debate. They harass, belittle, insult, and libel their targets and they essentially doom any serious attempt at discussing book reviewing. This is a shame. If it weren’t for these obsessed old-timers who’ve been abusing the Forums for years, the Forums would be a perfect place to discuss a topic that interests many sincere and enthusiastic Amazon reviewers. But again, the movement here is to censor and silence, and if possible, destroy. — I see this as part of what I call “the new censorship” or “censorship by bully” which has arisen over the past couple of decades on the net. —- Anyone familiar with the early “badly behaving authors” threads know they were all about intimidation, about boycotting and blacklisting, and essentially invited people to list any and all those whom they thought were “badly behaving” so that others would know to boycott and blacklist these targets and spread the word. This was a censorship movement from its beginnings. It “forbade” all criticism or discussion of its goals. “You question us for calling you a badly behaving author? We’ll destroy you for daring to question us! Don’t you get what this is about?” —- I was totally unaware of all this when I first stumbled in the Top Reviewers Forum. I was met with the same toxic atmosphere that enveloped your thread. —- I thank you for what you attempted. I thank you for at least giving it a go. —- Of course these old-timers abuse the Amazon guidelines and always have. They repeatedly stalk, harass and seek to embarrass and intimidate. And I say again that the most constructive thing we can do in response to them is report them to Amazon with thoughtful specific emails that document exactly what they do. —– I think the management right now is more than ever in the past open to reports of abuse. The over confidence of some of these obsessed careerist “book police” censors may eventually play a large role in their undoing. Things are changing. STGRB has played a major role in that change, and I am grateful to them. And again, I’m grateful to you for demonstrating that there is conscientious work to be done to support the integrity of the Amazon system, to support Amazon’s guidelines both with regard to book reviewing and with regard to Forum posting. All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. Oh, and by the way all the “sound and fury” against “authors” coming into this Forum and daring to try to discuss reviewing is sheer nonsense. Many “authors” are active and respected reviewers on Amazon. They have as much right as any Amazon customer to talk about reviewing. And many notorious abusive bullies active on Amazon are in fact “authors.” Take care and I wish you well.
Thank you, Anne. 😊
There’s a customer called “Shadow Dragon” there now that is being abused by the gang. Might be a good time to report some of those posts.
Yes Shadow Dragon was being very civil with everyone. She/he was very courteous to everyone as well. I just checked the thread after reading the last comment here and they were being very condescending and dissecting all his/her comments, as if trying to find anything to criticize. I feel bad for Shadow Dragon, he/she seemed genuine and good hearted.
It’s a form of emotional rape, that is what those bullies practice. They are much like the serial rapist in that they have an insatiable hunger to “feed” on those book forums and anywhere else they can get away with it. It’s a type of addiction, for the most part. Just a bunch of monsters hiding behind goofy screen names.
They practice EGR (emotional gang rape).
Good work guys, keep it up. This is a very similar problem as is currently happening in lots of other industries. All of these sites desperately need to make sure you’ve read a book before you review it. That would cut out most of the nonsense. Or at least impose a cost on the nonsense that worked to the author’s benefit.
You’re 100% correct about how to deal with these people though. Don’t think being civil will work, it won’t. Never apologize to them, they feed on it and become worse. You just have to ignore them and try and contact any authority you can to help cut them off.
I personally experienced a similar thing in other places. No matter how nice you are to some people they’ll find some way to twist your words to say the opposite of what you actually are politically.
And I just finished reading a review that was one star, and only had like two lines. Mainly not revealing much: that there was ‘nothing new’ to read, and you’ll have better luck reading a similar earlier book by the same author.
Kind of a failed bullying tactic, especially if you recommend another book by the same author. But these people stopped making sense a long time ago.
I think the reviewer is–oh now there are two, Mattie Montalvo and Amazondeletesreviews. Yes, I wish I were kidding about this.:/
Who is Mattie Montalvo?O_o
So yes, Amazon fora is a toxic place.
Well another depressing story, let’s hope for happy resolution for Emma.
I’ll avoid the Fora then.
Hey some news, it seems like people are getting all up and arms over something Richard Dawkins said. Interesting how people who once affiliated with atheism, will quickly change sides for sake of a snarky review or bookshelf.
I’m trying to decide whether it be worth unfollowing the user that mentioned this. Even if he sad an out of hand comment, I don’t approve of bully reviews or bookshelves.
Linked you a picture of RogerThatCaptain. If you rather I send it by email, just let me know.^^
Apparently Inkitt has a cyberbullying problem too.:/ Disappointing.
Some of the top reviewers on amazon have complained that they are getting their ranking knocked down by abusive down-voting. Another troll tactic, no doubt. While it is certainly a good idea to down-vote people’s reviews that you KNOW are TROLLS, the honest reviewers are now being targeted by trolling, apparently. Seems that the trolls have reared their ugly heads once again with new and different ways to harass people. The good thing is I have noticed many of the troll reviewers are getting down-voted also and their review rankings are also rapidly declining. I guess Karma has a way of balancing things out after all.
Thanks to STGRB for calling attention to this nasty troll infestation on amazon. Please continue in your mission.
Amazon needs to shut these forums down. They seek out people to publicly shame, like they’re trying to focus attention off their miserable lives. They sit on line all day long and post and stalk and post and stalk. They harass people that don’t agree with them and have their little “gang” all join in. They can’t just say something is wrong, they have to dig and dig and dig.
They may not have all these mental and physical disorders if they’d get up off their big butts and go outside. The sun is good! Walking, moving is good. Spending every waking moment seeking out things that anger you, is not good, but it shows us exactly how pathetic their lives are.