We’ve been meaning to write this post for a while. Sorry we are so late in doing it.
In our last post on Anne Rice, we showed you how she has been lighting up the Amazon fora with her wisdom and advice for authors. We also mentioned her unfortunate encounter with the bullies :
Note her Warning to Authors at the bottom. Unfortunately, like everyone else who has braved the discussion threads of Amazon, Anne too has noticed the hostility and general contempt that the AFT (Amazon Fora Trolls) have for authors. In fact, we published some of her comments on this topic in our post, Words of Wisdom From Anne Rice.
So… do you think she got attacked for her warning? You bet.
Has she stopped posting and offering her advice to authors? Nope.
In fact, she has responded to the trolls with such sophistication and eloquence, it seems they don’t really know how to respond to her. She’s too smart and trolls tend to be … well … not so smart.
In our post today we’ll show just how smart she is. She was immediately able to see right through the Amazon bullies and make intelligent observations that get right to the heart of the matter and reveal these nasty people for who and what they are: internet trolls. What’s more, she managed to isolate all of the most well-known trolls who stalk authors and their books simply because they have nothing better to do with their time.
First we’ll show you her general view of the Amazon bullies:
Next, her exchanges with Anna Karenina, the most prolific AFT in the fora who thinks a little too highly of herself and her self-appointed intellectual prowess.
And here is her exchange with Cathyr:
Her exchange with Jane:
With Lady Lucretia
And finally, with Mayhem or Moonlight Reader or whoever:
It is interesting to note how she keeps asking them what they’re doing in the MOA (Meet Our Authors) forum. She is right. They have no reason to be there and yet they keep coming back to harass her, revealing their true intentions: to seek and destroy.
Anne, like the rest of us, has also found it astounding that the bullies think authors are like children who are to be scolded and talked down to when they “misbehave” according to some inane and entirely bully-invented rule that the authors should have automatically known:
She also happens to notice a few more important facts about the Amazon bullies: that they are small but loud, that they consider themselves self-appointed gatekeepers, that they attack customers as well as authors, that they twist words, that they game the system, that they can’t take criticism, and that they create a destructive climate on the Amazon fora:
But by far her most insightful observation about them is that not only are they so sure of their own superiority that they disrespect authors, they don’t even view authors as human beings:
And a perfect example of this “authors aren’t human beings” mentality can be seen quite clearly in Miss Mayhem’s words:
Uh… she thinks authors are just like people? She thinks? She doesn’t know?
Gosh, you know, I think the pope may be Catholic, but I’m not quite sure. He does this and he does that, just like a Catholic. So I think he’s Catholic, but I’m still not quite sure.
*major eye roll*
What? Can’t you tell, Miss Mayhem or Moonlight Reader or whatever you’re calling yourself these days? Of course, authors are just like people! They ARE people!
Anyhow… that’s it for today. That’s Anne Rice on the bullies of Amazon. So… what does she think of GR?
It says something that the bad press on Goodreads has had such a far reach that even literary superstars like Anne will have nothing to do with it. You see, although Goodreads has attempted in recent months to clean up its site, for many out there it was too little, too late. Its reputation as a legit and professional review site is shattered. As one of our blog readers stated:
GR booted most of the main trolls that had taken over their site. They even cracked down on their shelving and fake ratings. Unfortunately they acted too late and tarnished their reputation beyond repair. As for the bookraging trolls, they went out with last years garbage. Now they just complain and whine a lot or make fake accounts. They appear to lack the fundamental gift given to all lifeforms on earth – a life.
Quite right, Anonymous. Quite right.
« Anne Rice Lights Up the Amazon Fora New Bully on the Block: Greg »
If you haven’t yet noticed, the troll Anna Karenina and the organized gang of assassin trolls that patrol Amazon book fora are largely interested in attacking authors who self-publish books. Why? In their words, it’s to protect the public from reading books they believe aren’t ready for publication because they are awful or because they haven’t been professionally edited. Authors, such as Anne Rice, are protected by their publishers and aren’t the typical target of the Amazon Author Assassin Trolls. So why are these trolls from the Authors Behaving Badly (ABB) Review Gang going after a well-known, respected author? Simply because Anne Rice has been publicly encouraging young writers to self-publish, and because she’s confronted the Authors Behaving Badly Gang in the Amazon book fora.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The trolls of the Authors Behaving Badly Gang are NOT your typical insane, online trolls who patrol Amazon simply because they have no life. Don’t be naive. This is an organized group whose members WORK to write reviews that will alert the public that a book is unedited, poorly written, self-published, or containing objectionable subject matter. And WHY would anyone do so much WORK for free? Answer that question and you’ll begin to see behind-the-scenes truth.
When Jeff Bezos began Amazon he was criticized for allowing critical reviews of products, but he defended critical reviews as a fair and balanced way to protect the public from false good reviews.
I personally spoke with an Amazon employee who revealed that he monitored Amazon book fora. He, and other Amazon employees, get paid to interact anonymously online and oversee activity. His job is somewhat similar to an undercover sky marshal – get aboard and behave like a regular customer while covertly protecting Amazon and the public from fake good reviews, spammers, and perverts.
Amazon could easily eliminate trolls and does regularly ban online visitors who don’t follow the rules setup in the Amazon guidelines. So WHY is Amazon putting a stop to rude, crazy posters like Anna Karenina? Figure it out. She performs a service for Amazon. The ABB review gang, and others like it, are doing exactly what Jeff Bezos wants them to do: Alert the public to inferior products. Uh-oh. Amazon employees can’t possibly read every single book published onsite, so how do they determine which books are inferior? Every eBook uploaded to Amazon goes through an automated software program which not only scans for spelling errors, but also alerts the Amazon publishing team to a host of other issues, such as percentage of objectionable words, grammatical errors, etc. These books have a high probability of receiving poor reviews!
You see, Amazon has to maintain the public’s trust of good reviews since the majority of consumers polled said they rely on reviews when deciding whether or not to make a purchase. This explains why Amazon employees not only allow poor reviews, they view critical reviewers and bully review groups as allies in the fight against substandard products, and fake good reviews. Which is scarey because these gangs of critical reviewers have the power to destroy the reputation of an author and cripple book sales. So who can you think of who would want that particular kind of power…besides some lonely cat lady sitting at home with too much time on her hands? Could it be competing authors, publishers, publicists, agents, and editors who deeply resent self-publishing authors for diverting book sale dollars away from deserving publishing professionals? Put the Amazon employees hunting down false good reviews together with the bully reviewers with an axe to grind, and you have an unstoppable gang.
Authors are encouraged to self-publish on Amazon, but they aren’t being warned. If their work is NOT up to TRADITIONAL publishing standards, their work, their name, their reputation, and their livelihood may forever be damaged by poor reviews. Not to mention the corrupt Amazon Review system. Someone should tell Anne Rice that Jeff Bezos is aware of the vicious attacks on self-publishers, and his employees not only allow those attacks, they enable and participate in them. God forbid you confront one of the gang members, because it won’t matter if you’re a respected, traditionally published author like Anne Rice. They’ll attack anyone who threatens their power, their influence, their ability to make or break book sales. There’s no point in engaging the ABB review gang members. They’re just doing their job – protecting traditional publishers and protecting the Amazon review system. So don’t expect Amazon to get rid of the trolls. That’s not going to happen until the word gets out that many of those bullies work for Jeff Bezos.
It is true they target self-published authors but we’ve seen them go after traditionally published authors as well and with the same amount of ferocity. Anne is one. Emily Giffin is another. There’s actually an entire list of traditionally published authors that they’ve attacked. It could be true that Amazon is involved, but we have no evidence of that. Not conclusive evidence anyway. It seems odd though. Why would the world’s largest online bookstore that champions self-publishing be directly involved in such dirty business? What puzzles us is the fact that the trolls have attacked very well-written, well-formatted books, written by independent authors. This suggests that it has nothing to do with the quality of the books, but rather how they feel about a certain author. If their purpose is as you say, their behavior is certainly defeating it altogether.
Yes, the majority of the BBA attacks are directed to self-published authors, and traditionally published authors that come under attack are in the minority. If you don’t understand why the world’s largest online bookstore is involved in dirty business, then I haven’t done a proper job of explaining the situation. There are politics in play that you will not understand unless you have insight into past struggle between Jeff Bezos and several major publishers. Although there was a settlement reached between Bezos, the Department of Justice, and three publishers, it’s not all sweet water under the bridge.
http://floccinaucical.com/amazon-the-doj-publishers-and-readers-a-timeline/
To put it simply, everyone who is anyone in the publishing world is aware of the Amazon bully gang by now, and Bezos wouldn’t tolerate dirty business on his site if it didn’t benefit Amazon’s bottom line. I’d like to remind you that the most famous review on Amazon is a one star review posted by Jeff Bezos’ wife for a book she personally disliked – a book written about her husband. Positive reviews and fear of critical reviews are very powerful tools that Amazon effectively uses to influence not only consumers, but retailers, advertisers, and publishers. I don’t know how anyone can be oblivious to just how much money is lost or gained by using an organized reviewer group. The body of evidence is littered all over Amazon fora.
Does it not seem as if these ABB trolls are sanctioned by publishing groups (Amazon itself perhaps)? I have found that readers prefer certain styles of writing, as well as in book content, and those two items will be present regardless of editing or publishing… i have read tons of well respected and well published books that i have thought to be horrible, but then the reverse is true as well. maybe these are “assassin trolls” hired by publishing componies to try and persuade authors not to self publish?
Hi everyone! I realize I’m new here but I have to jump in. I’m not sure if anyone is aware of the Authors Earnings Report and the uproar it has caused between legacy publishers and indie/small press. The numbers are certainly not the final end all do all but they are strong indicators. You can view the report, see what went into gathering the information, and even download the raw data to crunch however you like.
http://authorearnings.com/the-report/
Watching the vitriol that exploded upon the release of this report, I am inclined to agree that when it comes to troll, there is a method to their madness. Are they being directed. I think trying to prove a conspiracy on that level will be next to impossible, but I am inclined to believe they have their own agenda.
Legacy publishers have granted themselves the title of gatekeepers. Those who support them also see themselves as the elite, protecting the unwashed masses from crap. Self appointed, self inflated, they attack any and all they deem unworthy. But the reason why I bring up the Authors Earnings Report is that it shows Amazon is completely benefiting from indie publishing. Here’s a quote:
“The other eye-popper here is that indie authors are outselling the Big Five. That’s the entire Big Five. Combined. Indie and small-press books account for half of the e-book sales in the most popular and bestselling genres on Amazon.”
Amazon bears less expense, less headache, and greater profit with KDP than they do dealing with the legacy publishers. I strongly doubt Amazon would shoot themselves in the foot on this one. The Big 5, on the other hand, are an entirely different story.
They were the gatekeepers, in power without challenge. They never saw the threat, never believed anything could shake their stranglehold. But now legacy industry professionals are publicly attacking indies and the readers who support them.
There’s blood in the water.
As everyone knows the more frightened someone becomes, the more they lash out. It’s getting really ugly.
Unfortunately paid trolling is a reality rather than the product of a conspiracy theorist’s rantings. It’s a proven fact in the music industry and in US Politics (most recently Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker) at any rate.
I’ve long suspected that many reviewers of self-published books were Publishing House shills.
So people, who think that they have the audacity and the complete knowledge of the universe to ascertain what a good book ” is ” or ” isn’t “, feel as though they should be general hard-asses and attack new authors? How about, they contact the author and ask them if they would like to receive the editing of their book, free of charge. Or, perhaps something similar. And then, they can converse like adults about what the Author wants out of their novel? Trolls should just stay under their bridges and leave people alone. This trolling doesn’t seem professional, it’s more like faux classy egg tossing that is trying to be perceived as a public service. Trolls are bullies, by their very nature; it does not matter what the context is.
No worries – these kinds of vindictive bullshit artists are a clog in the system; Amazon will deal with them, or start losing market share as the system deals with the communication breakdown.
Trolls have one long-term solution; training them to turn on each other because trolls are by far the easiest targets and the most sensitive snowflakes, easily crushed by a rational criticism of their bullshit. Once they learn effective ways to troll each other, the entire internet will suddenly evaporate all those obstacles. Some of them might even learn to have a life!
It looks like Anne has disappeared from the thread. The bullies are now racing to post nonsense stuff until it reaches the Amazon forum limit which automatically locks the thread. Hundreds of pages of stupid stuff. No wonder so many find the forums there a total waste of time. >.<
(Yeah, I know, it's to be expected of the bullies. It's still annoying.)
I hope Anne starts a new one to continue offering help. I love how she remained so calm and well-spoken.
We know that Anne was sick for a while and stopped interacting with people on her thread. She is also working on a new book, so she’s pretty busy.
Excellent post. On Anne Rice’s Facebook page, she praises this STGRB article. I’m glad the bullies are now going to get additional national attention so all authors and readers on the web can be forewarned about who to avoid! These bullies are harmful, sadistic individuals.
Yes, we saw it. Our blog hits tripled today because of it. Good for Anne! She’s helping bring attention to a problem that has long needed a solution.
I HAD to Google her Facebook account to read the thread. Wow, what a great thread of comments after it. Yes, I saw one of the notable bullies try to come in and spread lies again. Now, come on. Didn’t we all expect that?
But, like in the Amazon forum, Anne was very level and clear-headed, speaking eloquently. Yay for Anne!
By the way, so did Athena. Athena, it was good to see you in there politely countering the lies. Thanks for doing that, as well as helping to keep this blog going to warn innocent writers about what they face out there in the literary jungle. It can be a dark and dangerous place.
You’re welcome, Booklover!
Did we expect that? Of course, we did. They’re so predictable, aren’t they?
I’m glad that she took the time to write down what she thought
It makes me sad though that there are people like that in Amazon of all places
Thank you so much Anne for your post. I’ve seen this happen to authors all the time. Most of these post you can read between the lines and can tell that the reviewer didnt read the book. This has happened to my friend on good reads and it has happened to me on barnes and noble’s website. My book was out for only two weeks and I got a bad review on grammer and under developed characters. This reviewer compared my book to the best selling twilight series. Clearly this person did not like twilight and the fact my novel has no vampires or werewolves in it makes ya think… Why are you here? And clearly you compared twilights Bella character to my main character because you already knew my characters name from the synopsis. I wish there was a better way to delete this post and hopefully it will stop. Thanks for your post again I will not let these poorly thought and written reviews stop me from writing and self-publishing.
*^-^*
Ugh, people are so disgusting and hateful. Good for you Anne (whom is one of my favorite authors). I wish more people would respond this well to them. I’m tired of the bullies always treating people this way, whether it’s on the internet or in day to day life.
As a soon to be author, I thank you for the forewarning of these toxic cyber bullies. Anne Rice, You have earned yourself a new friend. If you had any advice for someone placing their foot into the minefield, what should that person avoid to reduce the levels of this internet mafia tampering with ratings? Or is that all wishful thinking? Of course, good writing will propel someone forward, but are there things a person should avoid when marketing their first book?
I’m not Anne, but I have some advice for you as a victim of these bullies. The first thing I can say with any certainty is to avoid Goodreads, and Booklikes. Goodreads is a current haven for these people, and Booklikes is where they’re going when they cross the line and Goodreads finally evicts them. Whatever you do, stay away from Booklikes.
Unfortunately, the other advice I have for you is much more depressing. I hate to tell any person this, but this is what life is like for authors right now.
1. Do not ask questions. According to these people, because you are an author you are not entitled to ask questions, EVER. You’re just not allowed. Even if you think it’s innocent, just don’t. They will twist your words and warp them beyond all recognition. All it takes is one of them deciding they don’t like you to destroy everything you’ve worked so hard to build.
2. Do not interact. If someone leaves a trollish comment, or a negative review, or even just leaves you a 1 star without saying a word, DO NOT EVER ASK THEM WHY. DO NOT assume it is an innocent mistake. It never is. Asking them about it will draw the hounds on you, no matter how polite you are.
3. Do not have an opinion. If you express opinions, they’ll twist them against you.
4. Do not have friends. Sometimes all it takes for the trolls to turn on you is being friends with someone they don’t like. God, I wish I was kidding, but I’m not. I’ve seen this happen to several people.
5. Do not publicly express sympathy for another victim. Again, I wish I didn’t have to say this, but it’s true. This is what has caused some other people to become victims. If you want to offer someone your condolences, do it privately.
6. As an author, you are a second-rate human being, and do not deserve to use the tools websites provide for you. You’re not allowed to leave reviews. You’re not allowed to like posts. You’re not allowed to upvote good reviews or downvote bad ones. You’re not allowed to make blog posts. You’re not allowed to discuss other people or their books. You’re not allowed to have friends or family. You must SUFFER, because SUFFERING is the only thing you’re good for. (Note: I do not agree with this post, but that’s the way their brains work.)
I really wish there was some way that I could encourage you, but these sick f*ckers will turn on you, no matter what. The biggest advice I can give is to separate your author persona from your real persona completely. They have been known to stalk people, hack people, and even disclose personal information publicly.
This might help you. It’s a list of guidelines for new authors:
https://stopthegrbullies.com/2013/07/28/guidelines-for-new-authors/
Incredible!! What I learned here though is enlightening because as I delve further into research about internet trolling, there seems to be some explanations from professionals on this topic now. With Anna Karenina, you can plainly see the woman has sadistic personality disorder that she has never received therapy for.
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/sadistic-personality-disorder/
(CNN) — If you’ve ever complained that the trolls junking up online comment sections are a bunch of sadistic psychopaths, you might be onto something.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/tech/web/online-trolls-sadists/
Sorry I’m a little late here but I just found this. I am currently writing a post for my blog about bullies but not the Amazon trolls (wait until ya read this one, the bully boggles the mind). Anyway, one thing I want to mention is that I’ve been serious in the publishing industry for almost 20 years now. I worked hard to learn my craft, to write for the fiction market, I worked just as hard to learn this profession as I did to learn the office manager job I had for 30 years. I self published, was I perfect at first, no, definitely goofed here and there, but I corrected the mistakes, learned from them and worked even harder. I’m an indie who just caught up on serious debt, breathed a huge sigh of relief that the bills are covered, and finished yet another manuscript to send to my editor (yes, I hire a freelance editor, who I researched history and qualifications just like a job interview). This is business, this is a competitive market, I want to produce the highest product I can. And then I want my next one to be better!
Writing is one of the only crafts I’ve encountered that people believe because they can speak and be understood, listen and comprehend, they can produce the next great American novel, make zillions doing nothing, and go fishing. I work harder now that I did in accounting! Lol!
But I don’t want to see the new aspiring writers get horsewhipped out of the industry. The gatekeepers need to be the experienced, who can encourage the new aspiring writer to learn, practice, work hard, make something that you can be proud of then rip it apart and make it better than before.
I started learning the industry long before ebooks hit, if it wasn’t for a local writers guild who cared about the craft of writing, who wanted to encourage new talent, who wanted to help the newbie who was dazed and confused to the most experienced but always has room to grow writers, I’d be right there, throwing crap at the walls, hoping it sticks and wondering why it came back to hit me in the face.
While creativity and talent have to be there, they need to work hand in hand with knowledge, practice and suffering through critiques (sometimes they hurt no matter how nice the person is, sometimes even the meanest, hateful, awful review can hold a nugget that can help improve an aspect of the story. And to the haters, success is the best revenge.
I am working to see something like my old writers guild to help the new indies and when the bully takes a swing, someone answers back.
And the gatekeepers were never the traditional publishing houses – the idea of good story is subjective. What they do know is marketability. They could care less if a story is good, if it’s marketable, then they can sell it, and make the shareholders happy with their fat profits because the authors are earning less and less nowadays, all the while readers get disgusted and throw the book across the room.
Anyway, had to jump in, sorry for the long post but it’s an issue that is becoming a problem. The programs in the schools for stopping bullying need to be applied to the adults who act worse than a child does. I should have my blog post up in a bit. You’ll be amazed at the vitriol.
Just to let everyone know, we are removing any identifying information from the comments to protect you. The bullies are constantly watching our blog so we want to keep everyone anonymous and safe.
Anne is awesome. I interviewed her on the subject of Amazon reviews some time ago.
It’s 5 in the morning, 15th of February, when I saw Anne Rice’s post in my Facebook newsfeed. I have a huge feeling that these trolls are Filipinos. Don’t get me wrong. I am a Filipino businessman and I am based in the Philippines. The usernames like Anna Karenina and Lady Lucretia sounded very Filipino to me. “Anna Karenina” was the title of a television series here in the Philippines during the 90’s. Last time I checked (I hardly watch television), they made a new version of the series just recently. “Lady Lucretia”, on the other hand, must have come from a native word “Lukring” which means Crazy. Also, basing from the construction of the statements made by these so-called bullies, I would say that such statements were made by either one or two persons. But I would say just one having the belief that the bully is also bipolar.
So why am I saying these? Because I never really liked bullies. Also, considering the fact that outsourcing jobs to the Philippines (administering forums, SEO, etc) are cost-effective for international businesses. So how do we actually know if my intuitions are true? We wouldn’t unless somebody can trace the IP addresses of those trolls. But even IP addresses can now be masked. Sigh.
I will support Anne Rice in fighting these bullies.
Interesting theory. You might be right about some of them, but for others, we know who they are and where they live. For example, we know Anna Karenina’s real name and where she lives. So there does seem to be a mix of ethnic backgrounds among the troll population on Amazon.
Well, that’s good if you were able to figure out some of their identities. Just let me know how else I can be of assistance in fighting these bullies.
lucretia pronounced loo-cretz-ia is or was the daughter of a pope named borgia.
It is wonderful to see Anne Rice and STGRB working together, sharing each other’s blog posts and comments. Anne Rice is such an amazing lady, she is well able to deal with the Amazon trolls. One by one, the trolls came onto that Amazon thread trying to shout Ms Rice down, but she politely, yet firmly dealt with the trolls and then pushed them aside.
Anne Rice can see right through the trolls on the Amazon forums, she really gets what’s going on. She seems absolutely delighted with the STGRB blog post. I was thrilled to see that she shared your blog on her Facebook page. Well done STGRB! you guys must be over the moon. It is so heartwarming to read all the positive and supportive comments on Ms Rice’s Facebook thread after she shared the STGRB post. Her fans are so cheerful and pleasant, real nice, down-to-earth people. I saw a few trolls attempting to spread hate on her Facebook thread, but Ms Rice rightly deleted them. She isn’t interested in negativity and bitching. She is only interested in supporting authors. That is how it should be. What a truly amazing lady. She is so charismatic. Pure class.
I self published a book. I would say out of 500 people who purchase the book about 100-150 had a bad review. They wrote really eloquently or elaborately about how it was horribly written. I think what they missed was the book wasn’t meant to be a million dollar enterprise or a stepping stone to greater things. It was more so out of pure enjoyment of being able to write 80 thousand words and make it flow into a story. Also I had fun and it was suppose to be a fun goofy story. You can tell I love my characters. I also love making them live. I think Mrs. Rice has really great points. I would never attack another writer. We are all different others so than rest but in all general sense we all love the same thing. That is sharing the story and the people we have living in our imaginations.
I feel as though you missed the point here. Or maybe not the point of this article, but the point of reviews.
No one here, including Ms. Rice, is saying that bad reviews can’t be published. Reviewing at a book objectively and pointing out the flaws (bad grammar, poor character development, confusing story structure, under-developed world-building) is NOT what she’s fighting against. She’s fighting against unrestrained vitriol. “This author is clearly stupid and wouldn’t know what grammar is if it hit her in the back of the head” is inappropriate. “This book had many spelling and grammar mistakes that seemed to go beyond mere typos” is appropriate.
While I commend your dedication to writing and your enjoyment of writing, creating a story for funsies is different than trying to make money off it. If all you wanted to do was “love your characters,” why did you publish? If you weren’t prepared for honest appraisals of your flaws in the writing craft, why did you open it up for purchase by the public? Why make it available on Amazon? Why post it on GR?
This is one of the reasons that I believe these bullies are hurting the industry: They give a bad name to negative reviews. There IS a place for negative reviews, if done respectfully and factually, and they’re making it hard for negative reviews to have a place or be taken seriously. I don’t want to see an anti-bully backlash where anyone who posts anything but flowers and kittens gets bullied. Absolutely not.
(I’ll apologize for the length in advance.)
Where do I start? Oh… perhaps with a disclaimer: I am an Amazon reviewer, though not currently very active because both authors and reviewers have pissed me off. I also rarely reviewed books – just the ones that I was really happy or unhappy with. I almost never bother with self published authors, because that way lies madness. I can’t speak much to Goodreads, since I don’t have an account there, but I’ve read stuff about both authors and reviewers acting like brats, then taking it to blogs to escalate the pissing match. Sometimes the Goodreads crowd spills over into the Amazon forums and makes you wish for a F*k-Everybody:Ban-Them-All-and-Let-God-Sort-it-Out button.
Since I’m here, some thoughts about self-published works: I’ve read some good stuff, but it’s overwhelmed by the mountain of bad stuff you have to dig through. Needle, haystack type mountains. The last self-published work I read was horribly disappointing; I gave it a low rating, and explained why (searched material off the Internet from various sites riddled with affiliate links) and got a handful of negative votes equivalent to the number of upvotes on the only glowing five-star review. Nope… not obvious at all. It was a head shaking moment that I learned from: I paid for a Kindle book full of information blatantly violating the copyright of several online sites and attempted to farm me for advertisement income… Yay! I contacted Amazon, got a refund, and moved on.
As a reviewer, crappy reviews make me grind my teeth. The people who write utter nonsense because they feel some obligation to review something they bought, and have to make up 20 words (for the minimum) to post. People who clearly have imbibed something before purchasing an item, or reading a book. Yes, I have read the one stars on some of my favorite authors books, and gotten a reminder of how ridiculous people can be. I don’t care if someone doesn’t share my opinion about a book, but it’s unbelievable how many write reviews and clearly have not read the same book that everyone else has.
There is good and bad in the Amazon review system. I’ve seen it gamed by authors and reviewers alike. I’ve seen nonsensical reviews, and yes, overly harsh reviews that really should have been pulled as well. I’ve seen threats of violence by authors who didn’t like reviews they got for what amounted to awful self-pubbed works masquerading as books. The thing that confuses me however is that most of these books are displayed with a preview, or synopsis that usually provides fair warning that the contents of the book are not going to make a reviewer happy. But anyone who is likely to buy the book can read it too, so why do some reviewers still review the damn book? That’s no public service, that’s just being mean.
In case by now anyone has their dander up, let’s deal with it – there are crappy reviews, and crappy books. Amazon has very little in the way of filters for either, and once released into the general population, either one will be the cause of dust ups.
There are a lot of folks who have ideas, but not the skills, who should probably still be working with a writer’s workshop, or an editor, or peer reviewers. They aren’t likely to dry up anytime soon since anyone can publish a book, regardless of quality and charge money for it. Some of these folks are indeed unbalanced. Even mildly critical reviews are greeted with such vitriol by authors (or their friends, or family) I know some reviewers who don’t leave anything less than a three-star review out of fear of reprisals. I wonder why then they bother at all, but that’s another story, and an equally lengthy post/rant.
Lack of anonymity in the review system might make some behaviors less likely to occur like voting circles, and neg vote campaigns, and shill reviewing, but others will increase because much like self published works, Amazon doesn’t check reviews for quality – once they’re out there, they’re out there.
The bullying also goes all directions. Reviewers commenting on the book, authors commenting on the reviewer, and reviewers commenting on each other. Personal attacks have no place in the system, but they occur. However, if there is a pissing match taking place in a book’s review discussion, Amazon rarely does much about it. They have far too many items for sale it seems to anoint some hapless employee as discussion cop. I have been threatened by reviewers and authors alike who don’t like my opinion on the message boards. I am mildly annoyed by it, but I’m not doing anyone, least of all myself, any favors by patting either on the head and not voicing an opinion they may not like.
There are FAR too many authors and reviewers who take any criticism of what they write as a personal attack. They are unable to distance themselves from what they wrote and look at it critically. “Book could have used a good editor. Errors are so frequent, they detract from the book ” does not mean “You are a semi-literate hack, and you should feel bad, too,” but it is frequently taken that way. Likewise, there are those who are unable to provide a critique which addresses the book and not the author.
Sometimes, there isn’t any good way to say:
“Your review is not much more than a political platform to spout your views, and will be upvoted by those who agree with your politics, and downvoted by those who don’t, while adding nothing to any decision an impartial reader might hope to make about purchasing the book”; or
“..The plot is un-engaging, with flat characters and a basic storyline that might perhaps better suited to the young adult category were it not for the gratuitous and demeaning sexual violence inflicted on the heroine starting in chapter one, and in half the chapters that follow”
Mainly, people just don’t take it well. I wrote all this to get down to the concept that there are hack reviewers (professional or otherwise), and hack authors (professional or otherwise), and ratio of good to bad of either of them seems to run about the same. The review concept is supposed to help someone make a decision about a purchase, and it doesn’t always, either by glazing over flaws, or inflating them, or serving as platforms for venom. Amazon reviews are no different.
Still, I don’t think removing the anonymity of reviews serves the intended purpose – not everyone accepts even decent criticism, and lack of anonymity certainly hasn’t improved professional reviews. As a consumer, I have a jaded perception of “reviews” which are very complimentary to the item they are reviewing, and don’t care about the consumer at all. My very cynical viewpoint is that impartiality was killed by self interest long ago on many sites.
Amazon would do better with some internal oversight, but they are not likely to start. It would improve the review system, but require them to spend more money than they currently do. If they don’t think it will pay for itself, they’re just not going to do it.
All together now, and once more: THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY ABOUT THE REVIEWS. And you seem to be trying to make this all about self-published authors.
Anne Rice is not self-published. I’m sure many of the authors on the Horror Writers Assoc. Facebook page who support this petition are not-self published. But it’s easier to think of things in black-and-white, isn’t it? i.e. “Self-published authors write shitty books that are unreadable, they can’t take criticism, therefore they are the ones having the tantrums and causing the problems. The end.”
This type of thinking paints every self-published author with the same brush–which is patently unfair. And It’s so much more complex than that. You did touch on this issue being the fault of both sides, and I commend you for that.
I cringe inside when I see any author going off the rails in a tantrum about anything. It’s unprofessional and gives us all a bad name. It never helps the situation. It usually results in their blacklisting, which may or may not be appropriate. Maybe they aren’t mature enough to handle the criticism that comes with publishing and should retire until they grow a spine. I don’t know and won’t speak to that. I don’t think there’s anything that can be done about it. I only know that when my children were small, ignoring the tantrums was the best course of action.
And yes, many self-published books are crap. I downloaded two yesterday, read a page or two, and deleted them. But here’s the new reality: You might as well settle in and get comfortable or stop reading altogether. Self-publishing is not going away.
Just this past week, Kristy B. was bullied off of her own Facebook page before the release of her third book, Crashed. It wasn’t about a bad review. It appears to be a vendetta about something personal from her past. The book bloggers over there were outraged and passed around graphics and headers that said “I hate bullies. I support K. Bromberg” and somesuch. Ironically, the brouhaha may have gotten her so much attention, she hit the New York Times bestseller’s list (though maybe she would’ve hit it anyway). Go, Kristy! You deserve it. I support you fully.
Elle C. attempted to have a dialogue about bullying on her own Goodreads blog this month. Again, this wasn’t about a review. She was swarmed, shouted down, and one-starred as a result. She made some beautiful points ( i believe she said she was a lawyer, and I could tell), but in the end, it didn’t matter. The thread is still there, though closed. They twisted her words and drove her off HER OWN SPACE. You may or may not have agreed with what she said, but do you at least agree that she has a right to HER OWN OPINION and she has a right to talk about that opinion on her own blog without being bashed for it? It was a fabulous opportunity for dialogue, but some of these people don’t want dialogue. They want uniform consent. And they want to fight.
What’s really amusing is that it’s the same hardcore bully names every time. Every single time. There are maybe 20? 30? When I see their names next to a one-star rating, I automatically discount it, because I know it’s more than likely a revenge rating. They have zero credibility. They don’t appear to read much. They wield the one star like a weapon because it’s the only power these pathetic little people have.
And really, fellow authors: It’s just a star. One little star. And they may say something mean, but you can always have a primal scream in your closet. Not everything needs to come to the internetz. If your book is good, you’ll bounce back. I promise.
It’s true that the worst of the worst have been thrown off of Goodreads and are now marginalized on a forum in an obscure book catalogue website. But last summer I watched these a-holes go after authors with torches and pitchforks, howling for blood, and it wasn’t always about an author tantrum over a review. Sometimes the authors were baited to respond. The thrill of the hunt. I don’t know, maybe it makes them feel relevant or something. And the delicious irony about all of this is that the bully ringleader is a self-published author.
Then there was poor Lauren P., who simply asked “How can someone one-star a book that isn’t even released yet?” She was hounded off of Goodreads, then CHASED her to her Twitter page, where she had the most vile of things said to her. To be fair, at that point, Lauren should’ve just shut up. I kept thinking “God Lauren, close your page and go away for a couple of days!” You can’t reason with this mob and you can’t talk to them. She tried to do both, and failed miserably, giving them ammunition to fire back in the process. In the end, they made it entirely her fault, but I was there from the beginning and saw what happened. It started with an innocent, perfectly reasonable question, not a review.
The bullies will deny that anyone ever physically threatened an author, but I saw a post for Veronica R.’s last book where the reviewer threatened to throat-punch her if they ever saw her. I don’t know- maybe that isn’t a threat of physical violence in their book. It is in mine. Veronica tried to soothe the animals, but was shouted down. All this over an ending they didn’t like. Same thing with Laurel H..
There are just some psychotic, nasty, ugly little people out there who hide behind the anonymity of the internet, but I don’t think requiring real names on Amazon is going to help very much. The only thing that’s going to help is when some of these people start getting prosecuted for the things they do–both reviewers AND authors if appropriate– and I think we can see that starting to happen. I have hope.
Very good point. People are still confusing this with reviews. It’s not about reviews. It’s about bullying. One thing, though. It is much easier to prosecute someone for abuse when you know their real name and how to locate them. Anonymity complicates the issue and makes it more difficult to hold them accountable.
I’ll concede that there seems to be an extra-strength version of crazy on Goodreads.
Again, I don’t have an account there (and don’t bloody want one) so I only see what spills over in the places I do frequent. Badly behaved reviewers and authors both get their asses handed to them on the Amazon TRF, and a lot of the best reviewers simply don’t post there anymore because of the stupidity factor.
Let me reiterate the self-pubbed aspect – The good news is that just about anyone with a computer can now get published. The bad news is that just about anyone with a computer can now get published. It’s unfortunate, but there is, in my experience, an overabundance of people at it who are a few fries short of a happy meal. And no…the reality of self-publishing hasn’t slowed down my reading from traditional publishing, indie, or self-pubbed. It’s made me very wary of what I’ll even look at. If a book lacks any publishing oversight, and has no sample chapter or (Amazon feature) Look Inside, I don’t bother. And that unfortunately skims most self published works right off the top. If you wonder why reviewers still bring up the subject, and bring it up a LOT, well, I can only say that after ten years of reviews, the only retaliatory voting I’ve gotten for a review, and the only threat of violence I’ve gotten were both from self-pubbed authors. There’s bat-shit crazy enough to go around for both sides.
I’ll also reiterate what was apparently lost from my post – No, it isn’t all about the reviews, but you also cannot ignore where this is all starting – With a post of some kind, somewhere on a review site that caused escalating butthurt, in an environment that has little to no oversight on how users get into pissing matches, either on the message boards, or in reviews themselves. Real names on Amazon are something of a joke. Amazon has crap security, and has for a while, but until it becomes financially beneficial to them, they aren’t going to change. You’d think that a company that sells based on a review system might understand the value of maintaining its integrity, but I’ve seen no useful change since I first opened an account there. I imagine Goodreads is more of the same.
So if it’s not about the reviews, and it’s not about ALL reviewers, then the problem is the review sites, because asshats are universal. Without the controls in place to stop asshattery, it will go on. People hyper-react over sleights both real and imagined now on that forum, but If it’s not a complaint about reviewers, then taking the complaint to the Amazon TRF is like standing in the rain in a crowd and shouting at the sky. The sky doesn’t care, and the rest of the people in the crowd getting soaked along with you would rather do so in peace. Maybe a good shout makes you feel better, but if you actually mean to communicate with those either responsible, or who can change things, you’re in the wrong place.
You’ve got to make it matter to Goodreads or Amazon or [fill in the blank]. I wish I could tell you how to go about that, but if I could I’dve done so myself.
People hyper-react over sleights both real and imagined now on that forum, but If it’s not a complaint about reviewers, then taking the complaint to the Amazon TRF is like standing in the rain in a crowd and shouting at the sky. The sky doesn’t care, and the rest of the people in the crowd getting soaked along with you would rather do so in peace. Maybe a good shout makes you feel better, but if you actually mean to communicate with those either responsible, or who can change things, you’re in the wrong place.
This is what people told us about Goodreads when we first started our site and yet look at the policy changes GR has had to make. We started this to spread awareness and change the political atmosphere and it has gotten results. We have no reason to believe it won’t continue to do so.
RE: Anne Rice. Read the first comment on this blog post, and then tell me who’s at fault.
http://chuckpalahniuk.net/discuss/anne-rice-goes-fucking-insane-amazoncom
As for Laurel Hamilton, there are ENTIRE FORUMS dedicated to hating on her on Amazon. Like this one:
Nothing personal, but I’m not likely to trust Chuck or anyone LitReactor affiliated.
I’ve read the Ann Rice thing on there, and I find it amusing how combative they are calling her, when they can’t even manage to regulate and control their own fans–whi In my experience, even if you read the article completely, at least somebody will tell you you haven’t read it correctly.
I don’t see Ann Rice doing this.